Physics, Dreaming and Extreme States: Arnold Mindell

I just listened to the podcast on Madness Radio hosted by Will Hall, who invited Arnold Mindell. It was my first time listening to Arnold Mindell, and I found him to be a really fascinating and enlivening person who meets you with such excitement, openness, and wideness of life.

The podcast was about understanding his journey from physics to Jungian work, and eventually to developing Process Work.

He was, from early on, fond of nature and interested in how things work in nature, and this led him deeply into physics. He soon realised that he was having lots of dreams and did not know how to make sense of them. He also became more interested in the scientist's mind—the mind of the observer—which was missing in the scientific objective world.

He started going to Jungian analysts with his dreams and became more and more open about his dream life.

Later, he wanted to be not just an armchair dream therapist, but to work with people where they were, in movement and in different settings, including war areas and other difficult environments. This is how he started with Process Work.

What I found most interesting was the three layers of reality he works with. And how he sees that the question of what is reality is a central question in understanding human experience. This is where he makes sense of extreme states.

There are three layers. The first layer is the consensus world—the practical and objective world that we actually see, hear, and feel. And then there is dreaming reality, where personal experience begins to come up and lots of extreme states are also expressed in this way.

For example, a person saying, "You oppress me," and then another person saying, "You oppress me." So who is the oppressor is actually in the dreaming reality and in the air.

Can we go deeper into it? Can we understand the emotional reality beneath this?

Both have a need to be really understood and valued, to be cared for, to love each other, to have needs and desires, to feel their pain, and to be themselves. So we can actually enter through the dreaming landscape and meet them where they are, and really connect deeply beneath the surface and understand where they are coming from.

This can be a wonderful way to open up human subjectivity. It also gives a way to be with extreme states that are called schizophrenia, anxiety, bipolar, or psychosis.

Where we actually listen to voices or tactile hallucinations, or so-called delusions or so-called paranoia, we don't just diagnose them or label them, but listen to them and meet people where they are. They are in dreaming reality, and through that we can go beneath and understand the emotional experience of a person and bring them to subjectivity from the realm of dreaming.

For example, someone might say, "I hear a monster coming to hurt me." And then we can dream with them together and see a monster coming to hurt them. How do they feel? Where is it coming from? What do they like to do when the monster is coming?

Can we listen to them and be with them and slowly let the layers open up, slowly and slowly, instead of coming to so many conclusions about what a person is going through, and allowing it to unfold and become aware of it?

This is what I understand from what Process Work is. And I became deeply interested in how Process Work can be an amazing approach to working with people with schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar disorder, and other severe mental health experiences.

For example, Arnold mentions a patient in hospital who is lying down inside the bed, hidden, and she is scared. Arnold really sits with her where she is. And then slowly she opens up about a memory or childhood experience that can help him understand the inner life of the person.

I wish I could meet or interview Arnold for our podcast and spend time with him. Knowing that he passed away makes me sad, but I feel honoured to really listen to and read the work he has done. I am grateful to Arnold's partner Amy Mindell who in her warmth and kindness shared about this podcast to nurture the interest in Arny's work in extreme states. I am grateful for this nourishment.

I found Will Hall to be a deeply insightful and eloquent host, though I felt he was a bit detached at times. But he could articulate and understand Arnold really well.

In Arnold, I could feel a sense of charming personality in the manner he spoke and engaged. There was something enlivening about the way he approached human experience, and I found myself wanting to know more. I hope to read his book City shadows next.